On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Nancy Cordes:
- Former Vice President Mike Pence
- Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie
- Reps. Nancy Mace, Republican of South Carolina, and Ro Khanna, Democrat of California
- Robert Costa, David Becker, Scott MacFarlane and Nikole Killion
- Fiona Hill, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and former White House Russia expert.
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”
NANCY CORDES: I’m Nancy Cordes in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation, breaking news overnight, as a U.S. Osprey crashes in Australia with 23 Marines on board, and three people are killed in a racially motivated shooting in Jacksonville, Florida. We will have the latest on both stories.
Another first for the American presidency last week, a booking photo of former President Trump after he was charged, along with 18 others, with conspiring to overturn the 2020 election results.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States): We did nothing wrong. I did nothing wrong. And everybody knows it. I have never had such support.
(End VT)
NANCY CORDES: Trump may be right about that support, as his campaign says they have brought in more than $7 million, thanks in part to mug shot merch.
And his competitors?
(Begin VT)
BRET BAIER (FOX News Anchor): Please raise your hand if you would.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(End VT)
NANCY CORDES: Most, including former Vice President Mike Pence, say they’d support him for president even if he’s convicted.
We will talk to Pence, along with former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, who feels much differently.
(Begin VT)
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-New Jersey) (Presidential Candidate): Someone’s got to stop normalizing this conduct.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
QUESTION: Have you seen Donald Trump’s mug shot yet?
JOE BIDEN (President of the United States): I did see it on television.
QUESTION: What did you think?
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Handsome guy. Wonderful guy.
(End VT)
NANCY CORDES: We will have analysis and talk about the complicated legal calendar with our political panel.
Then: a childcare cliff looming next month and a bipartisan duo hoping to prevent it. South Carolina Republican Nancy Mace and California Democrat Ro Khanna will talk about the millions of children who could lose their care if Congress doesn’t act.
And, finally, Russia expert Fiona Hill weighs in on the mysterious plane crash that killed Russian mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin after his failed coup attempt against Vladimir Putin.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We have got a lot to get to today, but we want to begin with that crash of an Osprey aircraft carrying 23 U.S. Marines. Three of those Marines are now confirmed dead, and five more have been seriously injured. It happened during a multinational training exercise on Melville Island in Australia’s Northern Territory.
The incident is under investigation. And we will update you as we learn more.
The other breaking story, a dollar store in Jacksonville, Florida, is the site of a racially motivated shooting yesterday.
CBS News correspondent Cristian Benavides reports from the scene.
(Begin VT)
CRISTIAN BENAVIDES (voice-over): A heartbroken community left reeling after officials say a gunman opened fire inside a Dollar General store in Jacksonville, Florida, killing three people before taking his own life.
All three of the victims were black. Police say the suspect was motivated by hate when he walked into the store Saturday afternoon, wearing a mask and tactical vest.
T.K. WATERS (Jacksonville, Florida, Sheriff): Plainly put, this shooting was racially motivated, and he hated black people.
CRISTIAN BENAVIDES: In writings left behind by the gunman, who is described as a white man in his early 20s, authorities say he described his hateful ideology.
This picture, released by the sheriff’s office, shows swastikas drawn on the AR-15-style rifle he used to carry out the attack.
SHERIFF T.K. WATERS: We stand together as a community. We live together as a community. We fight together as a community. And when someone comes into our city and does this, we’re not going to stand for it, and we don’t accept it.
CRISTIAN BENAVIDES: The FBI has opened a federal civil rights investigation and will investigate this as a hate crime.
(End VT)
CRISTIAN BENAVIDES: The shooting happened less than a mile from Edward Waters University, a historically black university.
In a statement, the school said they believe the suspect was on campus earlier in the day, but left after being confronted by a security officer.
NANCY CORDES: That was Cristian Benavides reporting from Jacksonville.
We want to turn now to politics and former Vice President Mike Pence, who joins us from Indiana this morning.
Mr. Vice President, thank you so much for being here.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE (R-Presidential Candidate): Thank you, Nancy. Thanks for having me on.
NANCY CORDES: Absolutely.
I want to start with this shooting in Jacksonville. You know, here we are, it’s the eve of the 60th anniversary of the March on Washington. And yet we’re appearing — we’re appearing to witness a rise in racial hatred, in white supremacy across the country.
What can you do, what can your party do, what can the nation do to address this?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Well, there’s no place in America for racially inspired violence.
And I condemn what occurred in Jacksonville in the strongest possible terms. That wasn’t a criminal act. That was an act of evil.
And — but I — and our prayers are with the families who lost loved ones and those that are injured. Karen and I prayed this morning for them. And, as a Marine Corps family, we also prayed for the families of our Marines that were lost and injured in the Osprey crash. We believe in prayer at our house, Nancy.
But — but, look, I — this issue of mass shootings is one that I think we need leadership in this country afresh. I — I — I will tell you that I believe that the — there’s a series of steps that we can take, providing law enforcement with the support that they need, ending this — this long experiment of defunding the police by the American left.
I think we need to provide federal funding to provide armed guards at all of our public and private schools. We need a commitment to institutional health care in this country that I have called for many months ago.
But, at the end of the day, I also believe that justice delayed is justice denied. And I’m calling for an expedited federal death penalty for anyone engaged in a mass shooting like took place in Jacksonville or — or, frankly, like the shootings that took place at — at a baseball park and at a football game.
NANCY CORDES: Right.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: We — we’ve got to send a message to anyone that has evil in their hearts that there is no chance for them to spend the rest of their life behind bars, that they’re going to meet their fate in months, not years.
And I believe — I believe expedited due process of federal death penalty for those that engage in the kind of mass shootings that claim lives in Jacksonville yesterday is an idea whose time has come.
NANCY CORDES: Understood.
Let’s turn to the Republican primary. There was a moment that a lot of people will remember from the debate the other day, and that was when all of the candidates were asked whether they thought you did the right thing on January 6, 2020.
Let’s listen quickly to how some of them responded.
(Begin VT)
NIKKI HALEY (R-Presidential Candidate): Vice President Pence did the right thing.
GOVERNOR DOUG BURGUM (R-North Dakota) (Presidential Candidate): Mike Pence did the right thing on January 6.
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: Mike Pence stood for the Constitution.
SENATOR TIM SCOTT (R-South Carolina) (Presidential Candidate): Absolutely, he did the right thing.
GOVERNOR RON DESANTIS (R-Florida) (Presidential Candidate): Mike did his duty. I have got no beef with him.
(End VT)
NANCY CORDES: Can you tell us what it felt like to get that kind of validation from your fellow Republican leaders, after all the abuse you’ve taken from the MAGA wing of your party for the past 2.5 years for that, for simply doing your job on January 6?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Well — well, Nancy it was heartening.
But it — it wasn’t anything new. Frankly, as I have traveled around this country for the last 2.5 years, Americans from every walk of life have come up to me and — and expressed their appreciation for the fact that we did our duty that day.
Look, I — I — as I said, I understand the disappointment in the 2020 election. I was on the ballot. But, under our Constitution, states certify elections. And once court cases and reviews and recounts are completed, the only duty of the vice president is to preside over a joint session of Congress where those votes are open and counted.
And I welcome the fact that almost everybody on that stage made it clear that I did my duty that day. And I think the American people deserve to hear where every single one of the candidates for the Republican nomination stand.
NANCY CORDES: Yes, I want to ask you about one of those candidates, entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy.
You had some criticism of him on the stage. You said the country can’t afford to have a rookie in the White House. I wonder what you make of his voting record. He is listed as an unaffiliated voter in his home state of Ohio. He didn’t vote in the ’22 primaries. He has acknowledged that he didn’t vote in most presidential elections, and he describes himself as a – – quote — “American nationalist.”
What’s your view of his politics?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Well, you know — where to start?
(LAUGHTER)
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: We had a good, vigorous debate, which is — you know, which is why you have primaries, Nancy.
And I welcome the chance to contrast my longstanding commitment to the conservative agenda to — and — and frankly, the fact that I believe, in all humility, that I’m — I’m the most qualified and the most tested candidate in this race, not only with Vivek, who I have known for several years, but for everybody else on the stage.
I mean, look, I think this country is in a lot of trouble. I think Joe Biden, from that disastrous withdrawal in Afghanistan two years ago this week, to his policies that launched the worst inflation in 40 years — mortgage rates went up to a 22-year high yesterday, burdening families — their war on energy, the crisis at the border, the assault on our liberties, that now is the time, I believe, for leadership, that — that knows how to move the Congress, knows how to move an administration, but also has led a state and made the hard choices of a chief executive at the state level.
And so I was happy to contrast that. With regard to his voting record, I — I…
NANCY CORDES: But we’re talking about — we’re talking about Ramaswamy here.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I — I…
NANCY CORDES: … if you don’t mind, Mr. Vice President.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Yes.
NANCY CORDES: He said that he would pardon Mr. Trump.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Sure.
NANCY CORDES: You were one of six candidates on the stage who said that you would support Mr. Trump even if he is convicted of a felony.
Why do you feel that way, especially since you also said on the stage that you felt that he asked you to put him before the Constitution? Why should someone like that be president?
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Well, look, I — I signed a pledge to be on that stage to say that I would support the Republican nominee.
I remain confident, more confident after Wednesday night, that the Republican nominee will not be the former president, that we’re going to give the American people a standard-bearer for the GOP that’s going to be able to lead us to victory against Joe Biden and — and the radical left.
But — so, you know, my — I raised my hand just to say that I will — I will support the Republican nominee, because, Nancy, I could never support Joe Biden. I mean, Joe Biden’s policies have been disastrous. He and his family are under an ethical cloud themselves.
And, frankly, Joe Biden has trampled on the Constitution of the United States. He’s failed to faithfully execute our laws at the Southern border of the United States, created the worst crisis in American history. And that — that student loan giveaway, where he was going to ask truck drivers to pay their taxes to pay off the student loans of graduate students was a — was, essentially, an unconstitutional power grab that I rejected.
So, I will support the Republican nominee and — and I’m going to continue to work my heart out to make sure that it’s me.
NANCY CORDES: Mr. Vice President, we will be looking forward to the next debate and seeing you there.
Appreciate you joining us this morning.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Thank you, Nancy. Good to be with you.
NANCY CORDES: We turn now to former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
Governor, good morning. Thanks for being here.
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: Thanks for having me, Nancy. It’s good to be here.
NANCY CORDES: Let’s get right to it.
Do you take issue with former President Trump making money off of his mug shot?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: Look, there’s almost nothing anymore that he could do that would surprise me in terms of the ongoing grift.
You know, Donald Trump promised the country when he ran in 2016 that he would drain the swamp. Really, all he did was rearrange the swamp, rearranged it so that he could make money off of regular voters to pay his own legal fees, to pay $208,000 for his wife’s stylist, and to set up a $2 billion grift from the Saudis for his daughter Ivanka and his son-in-law, Jared.
You know, we see the same thing with Hunter Biden and what he’s doing. We have two ruling families right now in this country who put themselves before the people they’re supposed to represent. We need a wholesale change. And that’s why I’m running for president.
NANCY CORDES: You think Trump supporters are being ripped off when they donate?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: Absolutely, you know, when you see $40 million in legal fees in just the first half of the year.
And that was before two of the indictments. These fees are only going to go through the roof. And Donald Trump maybe should sell one of his golf courses or maybe sell his apartment at Trump Tower to fund it. But, instead, he’s taking people who donate an average of $100 to him to try to get him to become president of the United States again, and he’s using that money to pay his legal fees.
It’s — it’s unethical, it’s immoral, and it’s just another part of the grift that’s been going on in Washington D.C. for much, much too long. And you look at him, and you look at what’s going on, as I said, with Hunter Biden and the way he was selling access to his father when he was vice president, I think that we should be tired of both of those acts.
NANCY CORDES: You know, you said at the debate — and it got a lot of attention — that candidates need to stop normalizing Trump’s conduct.
But you stood by him after he was accused of rape, after he praised Vladimir Putin repeatedly, after he was impeached.
Didn’t you normalize his conduct for a long time as well?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: The conduct I’m talking about, Nancy, is the one that is the greatest threat to our country and the greatest threat to our democracy.
And that was standing in front of the cameras from the White House behind the seal of the president on election night and telling people the election was stolen and for now three years, nearly, continuing to say the same thing, with absolutely no proof and no evidence. That’s the problem, Nancy.
You can have policy disagreements with someone. And, believe me, I spoke out at the time about the things that I disagreed with Donald Trump on. That’s much different than taking classified documents from the White House and hiding them for 18 months from the government, claiming you don’t have them, when these are some of the biggest secrets in our — in our country’s arsenal.
It’s different than undercutting democracy, in the way that he was doing so and leading to the right we had on Capitol Hill on January 6. You know, I’m going to get on that stage and I’m going to tell the truth. Regardless of what other people may think, that is the truth.
And that’s why I urge people to go to ChrisChristie.com, donate to support the truth, because that’s what we’re standing up for.
NANCY CORDES: One of Trump’s 18 co-defendants in Fulton County is his former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, who you know.
And he’s going to be in court tomorrow arguing that his charges should be moved to federal court because the conduct in question happened when he was serving in the federal government. You are a former federal — federal prosecutor.
What do you think of that argument?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: He’s got an argument to make, Nancy.
There’s no doubt that, under the statutes, there’s an argument to make. But, ultimately, all these change of venue decisions are at the discretion of the trial judge here, a federal judge, who’s going to be hearing that. And he’s going to want to hear all the different evidence. And the balancing of the interests in these venue decisions are made on that basis.
So, is there an argument to be made? There’s definitely an argument to be made about switching venue to federal court. But, in the end, it really won’t change matters all that much, except that the trial won’t be televised. It still has to be governed under the state laws of Atlanta.
The only thing that will be different are some of the procedural things that lawyers care about. But, in the end, all of the charges must remain the same. So I think that whether Mark Meadows wins that motion or doesn’t is not going to make a substantive difference on how ultimately a jury is going to be asked to make these decisions at the time of trial.
NANCY CORDES: I want to move to an issue that a lot of Republican voters in particular care about, which is immigration.
On the debate stage, a couple of your opponents seemed to suggest that they would send troops into Mexico to fight the drug cartels. Governor DeSantis said he would deploy U.S. Special Forces.
Do you think that that is a viable solution to the Fentanyl crisis? Wouldn’t Mexico view that as an act of war?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: I think they would.
And, look, I see it also as an — as an act of war by China to be sending the precursor chemicals to these Mexican drug cartels in order to make the fentanyl that they’re sending up into the country.
Look, I think there are ways to get this done. I think we have to use our intelligence assets. We have to be much tougher and stronger at the border to prevent people from coming through, finish the wall that Donald Trump never finished, only built 52 miles of in four years.
We need to make sure that we put National Guard at the border to stop those folks from coming across the border with fentanyl. I think the invasion-of- Mexico issue is one that sounds good on the debate stage, but I think, if any of them tried to implement that part of it as president, they would find it’s much more complicated that they’re — than they’re making it sound.
NANCY CORDES: Wouldn’t it be illegal to have the National Guard serving in a law enforcement capacity at the border?
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: No, Nancy, look, I think that what we’re doing is protecting the border.
They would be working with Customs and Border Patrol folks hand in hand. They can effectuate the arrest. But you obviously need greater force there to prevent them from coming over the border in the first place. And so it’s a combination of the two of them. Customs and Border Patrol would still be the law enforcement agency.
But they need backup. They need help. And we’re not getting that right now from the Biden administration.
NANCY CORDES: Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, thanks so much for joining us today.
FORMER GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE: Thanks for having me, Nancy. Have a good Sunday.
NANCY CORDES: Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
NANCY CORDES: We are back with South Carolina Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace and Democratic California Congressman Ro Khanna.
Together, they launched the Congressional Bipartisan Affordable Childcare Caucus — that’s a mouthful — to deal with the childcare cliff that is barreling down the pike.
And I want to get to that in just a moment, but first want to talk to you about politics.
Congresswoman, President Trump is now facing four indictments, and yet he is still the overwhelming favorite to win the Republican nomination. Can your party win the presidency if he is the nominee?
REPRESENTATIVE NANCY MACE (R-South Carolina): Well, I think every — both sides are going to have to work hard to win next year.
I — I talk to a lot of voters that are frustrated with both the Republican and Democrat Party. Both parties have put us on the spending cliff. You talk about childcare cliff, which we’ll talk about in a moment. But both parties have contributed to the inflation that we have today, the out-of- control spending, the debt ceiling that’s going to add almost $20 trillion to the debt over the next 10 years.
And I think both parties are going to have to make a strong case next year, regardless of who the nominee is. But we’ll see what voters decide next year.
NANCY CORDES: You think Trump is a good messenger for that case?
REPRESENTATIVE NANCY MACE: (r)MD-SU_He’s running away with the nomination process now.
We’re still pretty far out, but he just raised over $7 million after the fourth indictment. So, voters will get a say. I know that, in my district and in my state, he’s the standard-bearer for the nomination right now.
NANCY CORDES: Congressman Khanna, you said back in April that you felt that the White House was being too overprotective of the president, that it basically wasn’t letting him get out there enough and be his authentic self.
Do you feel that top aides in the White House got that message?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA (D-California): I think they do.
The President has a great story to tell. He’s bringing back manufacturing in Ohio, $20 billion in Ohio of new industry. He is focused on the working class. I was actually just in South Carolina yesterday with Bishop Green at AME Church, and the faith community has a lot of support for him.
He’s a better politician than anyone who works for him. Let him be out there.
NANCY CORDES: Congresswoman Mace, you are pro-life, but you’ve also said your party’s too extreme on abortion.
And on the debate stage the other night, many of the candidates put their support behind a national abortion ban at 15 weeks, perhaps even earlier. Your fellow South Carolinian Nikki Haley was not among them. She said that that’s unrealistic.
But do you think that position is going to hold up well with the GOP primary electorate?
REPRESENTATIVE NANCY MACE: Well, certainly, every candidate talked about being pro-life and what their — what their limits may or may not be.
But the only candidate on the stage that talked about how we should protect women and not demonize them was Nikki Haley. And that is a message that we have to carry through. We have to be pro-woman and pro-life. You cannot go after women and attack them because they make a choice that you don’t like or do not agree with, because it’s a very sensitive subject right now.
We want to show that we are going to protect women who’ve been raped, girls who are victims of incest. We want to make sure that every woman in this country, regardless of where she lives or how much money she makes, that she has access to birth control. Those are the kinds of things — and we’re going to talk about childcare in a minute — but those are the kinds of things that really matter to women. And we have to show that we — that we care.
And I do want to add that I know that you were praising President Biden, the story that he has to tell, but the story he won’t tell is a story about his family’s business. He has lied every single time he’s been asked about his family’s business. He’s lied about his involvement. He had a pseudonym.
Like, you’ve done — if you’ve done everything up aboveboard, why is there the need to lie for it? That is a story that I want to hear. That is a story that every American deserves.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: If I could just respond to that…
NANCY CORDES: Very quickly. We don’t have much time left.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: … Representative Mace and I agree on a lot of things, but this president has shown integrity for 40 years.
He has been completely transparent. He has allowed the law enforcement agencies to take their hold without interfering. And I think the American people will see that.
NANCY CORDES: Well, when we come back, we’re going to get to a topic you both do agree on. And that’s childcare.
We’re going to take a quick break, but more with Congressman Mace and — Congresswoman Mace, rather, and Congressman Khanna on the other side.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
NANCY CORDES: This week, CBS News presents a special edition of BET’s America in Black with a look the 1963 march.
It airs at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time Monday night on BET, and it’s available on CBS News Streaming and the CBS News and Paramount+ apps starting at 8:00 p.m. on Tuesday.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
NANCY CORDES: We will be right back with more from Congressman Khanna and Congresswoman Mace, plus our political panel and Russia expert Fiona Hill.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
NANCY CORDES: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. I’m Nancy Cordes in for Margaret today.
And we are back with Republican Nancy Mace and Democrat Ro Khanna.
And the two of you are here because the U.S. is facing a so-called childcare cliff that most parents probably didn’t know about. On September 30th, just a little over a month from now, $40 billion worth of pandemic- era funding for the childcare industry is set to expire. And without it, up to 70,000 childcare facilities could close and an estimated 3.2 million children could lose access to childcare.
These numbers are really frightening. What can the two of you do about it and how quickly can you get legislation together so that Congress could consider it before the deadline?
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Well, it’s staggering the challenge before us. And Congressman Khanna and I, we’ve been good friends. We’ve been great lawmakers together. We’ve started a childcare caucus. Our approaches may be different from time to time on different issues, but our goals are always the same. And these are issues that parents, especially moms, that – that they care about and we have to address. From the perspective that I’m looking at, you know, we talk about four-year-old pre-k, we talk about making sure that parents have the freedom and the resources to have childcare options, affordable child care options.
I approach it from a less government regulation standpoint. We have some really crazy regulations in this country. Some places say you have to have a four-year college degree. Well, that certainly makes it harder to find childcare workers –
NANCY CORDES: Yes.
NANCY MACE: There are increase in costs because of it. Other places say, well, if you’re certified in one state, it’s not reciprocal in another. And it’s just – you know, having some of those approaches that can be easy to fix, fast fix, not controversial, that can pass out of a Republican- controlled House, Democrat-controlled Senate and get to a Democrat president’s desk to be signed into law, that’s what we’ve got to be working on.
NANCY CORDES: So, what do the two of you agree on?
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Well, first of all, as divided as we are as a country, 86 percent of Americans believe that there — we need more support for affordable childcare.
NANCY CORDES: Right.
RO KHANNA: This is something that unifies Americans.
We have agreement on more training for childcare workers, paying them more and having more flexibility. We have an agreement on some support, government policy support, for childcare.
The average cost of a family for childcare is $10,000 a year. And 85 percent of women say that they can’t work because of childcare issues if they’re leaving the workforce. So, we have a — we need a short-term solution, which is a continuation of some of the grants and funding the Childcare Stabilization Act so we don’t have this cliff and that the president signs, and then we need a long-term solution to reduce the costs to families.
NANCY CORDES: Experts say doing that alone would cost $16 billion.
Congresswoman, you spoke earlier about the fact that you feel that both President Trump and President Biden presided over too much spending.
NANCY MACE: Yes.
NANCY CORDES: But a lot of the solutions here, experts say, costs money. Universal pre-k, fully funding the childcare development fund, subsidizing childcare for low-income families. What could you live with and what do you think you could convince fellow Republicans to get on board for?
NANCY MACE: Well, I actually think it’s less government, not more, that’s getting in the way of this. We saw in December of 2018, when the Azar (ph) report came through making recommendations to states about health care policy and certificate of need, the same kind of thing could be said for, what are some of the easy, low hanging fruit regulations that we can roll back or eradicate or recommend go away.
NANCY CORDES: Do you think – do you think rolling back regulations alone, though, can really get at the problem?
NANCY MACE: It’s something we can agree on. It’s a good start because right now we’re going to have a very difficult time with the appropriations process because of the amount of spending that’s going on, because of the additional supplementals. What are some of the small parts that will make a big difference in a mom’s life? And that is one thing that I think a lot of us can agree on. It’s not going to be easy. We do some large, comprehensive spending package. It’s going to have difficulty going through. So, I’m looking for the small parts big difference here policy wise.
RO KHANNA: This is an investment that is pro-economic growth. I mean businesses are losing billions of dollars because we don’t have people in the workforce. So, it pays for itself. And then you look at the funding. You’re talking about less than 1 percent of the defense budget. We’re one of the only countries that is putting $10,000 of burden on ordinary families just to take care of their kid. It’s pro-family, it’s pro-economic growth, and we should have a consensus in this country to have the government make a difference here.
NANCY CORDES: And –
NANCY MACE: We can incentivize businesses too and make sure that parents have the money to be able to afford childcare. Less taxes would be great.
NANCY CORDES: And it is so important because we’ve seen study after study that shows that early childhood education makes such a huge difference in outcomes later in life. So, we really hope you’re successful.
NANCY MACE: Thank you. We’re working real hard.
NANCY CORDES: Congresswoman Nancy Mace, Congressman Ro Khanna, appreciate it and appreciate you being here today.
NANCY MACE: Thank you.
RO KHANNA: Thank you.
NANCY CORDES: And we’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
NANCY CORDES: This Monday marks the 60th anniversary of Martin Luther King’s Jr. “I have a dream” speech that he made at the 1963 March on Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.: I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up, live out the true meaning of its creed. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY CORDES: Yesterday, thousands marched to honor the anniversary. A continuation of Dr. King’s dream with many echoes of the past and concerns about the challenges facing the civil rights movement today. Among those who spoke, Dr. King’s granddaughter, Yolanda King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOLANDA KING: Sixty years ago Dr. King urged us to struggle against the triple evils of racism, poverty, and bigotry. Today, racism is still with us, poverty is still with us, and now gun violence has come for our places of worship, our schools, and our shopping centers.
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NANCY CORDES: A powerful message. We’ll discuss that with our political panel.
Joining us now, Robert Costa is our chief election and campaign correspondent, David Becker is our CBS News election law contributor, and we’re also joined by congressional correspondents Scott MacFarlane and Nikole Killion, a double billing.
Thanks to all of you for being here.
What prescient words by the granddaughter of Martin Luther King, just a few hours before that shooting, talking about racially animated shootings taking place across the country.
Nikole, you know, here we are, 60 years later, still a lot of challenges.
NIKOLE KILLION: Yes, really striking. Of course, that was King’s granddaughter. We also heard from Martin Luther King III, Dr. King’s son, and King’s wife.
But, you know, really being out there on the mall yesterday, 60 years later, it was palpable the amount of frustration and concern there is 60 years later. You know, we talk about how far we have come as a country, and yet, for many, particularly in the African American community, there is a sense that we’re still fighting the same battles, whether that’s issues of hate crimes and racial violence, whether that’s the issue of the rollback of affirmative action, voting rights. So, those were some of the concerns articulated at the march yesterday, and also a call to action to continue to keep fighting some of these issues so that one day Dr. King’s dream can be realized. That certainly was the message expressed.
NANCY CORDES: A call to action earlier in the show today by former Vice President Mike Pence as well.
Robert, I want to talk to you about the former president, President Trump, who is now — he’s – he’s been booked. He’s got a mugshot. He’s raising a lot of money using that mugshot. What can you tell us about the legal strategy that his – his team has right now, particularly after he has changed his legal team in the Atlanta case?
ROBERT COSTA: Good to be with you.
He has shaken up his legal team in Georgia. What to watch now is the difference between his strategy and the strategy of his co-defendants in this Georgia case. A sprawling prosecution using RICO, racketeering charges, to get this large group of defendants together.
Kenneth Chesebro, who authored a memo suggesting alternate electors should be organized by Trump people, he is pushing for a speedy trial. So is Sidney Powell, another co-defendant, who infamously urged Trump to use the government to seize voting machines in the weeks after the 2020 election. But Trump himself is not pushing for a speedy trial because it could have political complications based on our reporting here at CBS News. He could be called as a witness during the fall, just as debates are heating up and the primaries and caucuses loom on the horizon.
What you’re also watching in Georgia right now is the push by Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff, to have this trial move from being a Georgia case at the state Fulton County level, to being a federal case. So, there are many dynamics at play, multiple legal fronts, all as the political battleground also unfolds.
NANCY CORDES: David, you’re a lawyer. Robert just mentioned these co- defendants who are looking for a speedy trial. Why would they want a speedy trial? Why would they want their lawyers to have less time to prepare for this?
DAVID BECKER: Well, they might feel that they already know the facts of this case and they’re prepared to go to trial. There might be a variety of tactical reasons they might be moving in that way. And the court’s ultimately going to have to decide how to server all of these defendants and place them into and do different court cases at different times. Or they could ultimately all be tried together as well if there’s some way to reconcile that. But that’s something that the lawyers and the clients are obviously discussing and trying to figure out. And this is where we’re really going to see the tension between the defendants. These defendants aren’t all unified in their claims. And some of them may do better if others of them do worse. And so we’re going to see that play out over the next several months as these tactical considerations are made.
NANCY CORDES: We know that Donald Trump does not want a speedy trial in this case or any of the cases. In fact, in D.C. tomorrow there’s going to be a hearing about one of his federal cases where his lawyers have pushed to have the trial in 2026. Are they going to be successful with that – with that motion, Scott?
SCOTT MACFARLANE: We will find out tomorrow, 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time. The judge in Washington, D.C., determines the trial date. And this is a Mars and Venus type of world. The prosecution wants it January 2nd. And, as you mentioned, Trump’s team wants it 2026.
There are some reasons for optimism for Jack Smith going into this hearing. First of all, the early hearings in this case have moved crisply. They’ve had a quick schedule and the judge has met all the early deadlines. And the judge has said, if Donald Trump continues with vitriolic social media posts, she’s inclined to move the trial date earlier to avoid tainting the jury pool. And there’s also the other matter of, there are many other cases going on and this schedule is getting clogged quickly. January or early 2024 trial might suit some purposes. And, Nancy, by so many accounts, this case, the one in D.C., is built for efficiency.
NANCY CORDES: I want to ask you, Nikole, about the vitriolic social media posts that Scott just eloquently described. The judge in – or the D.A., rather, in Atlanta has a different bond agreement with Donald Trump than with any of his other co-defendants. Basically, he has to refrain from attacking fellow witnesses, defendants, on social media or anywhere else. Based on what we know of Donald Trump, which is that he attacks lots of people all the time on social media, how is it – how likely is it that he is going to live up to that agreement?
KILLION: Well, it remains to be seen. I mean we also know that he’s very verbose on the campaign trail and doesn’t really hold back when it comes to going after the prosecutors in this case, but he does have to be very careful. We know that he has a new counsel in Georgia. I would imagine maybe conversations would be had about those parameters to reaffirm them. But certainly the fact that the former president turned around and put his mugshot on social media in such a short period of time, raised some $7.1 million off of that, shows that, you know, he is trying to capitalize off of this case. So, it’s certainly likely he could go after some of these witnesses, continue to go after prosecutors. But if he’s being smart about it, and listening to his counsel, hopefully he won’t.
NANCY CORDES: A lot of people wondering why a billionaire would have to go through a bail bondsman to post a $200,000 bail.
COSTA: Well, this is a case where Trump is just trying to get his bearings now in Georgia. He got rid of his lawyer, Drew Findling. But the political consequences of all this, they’re watching Trump get a bail bondsman in Georgia, the rest of the field. I was in Milwaukee this week covering the debate, and they’re just wondering, is there ever a moment where this all becomes too much for now Republican voters are rallying behind Trump. They’re buying his mugshot on coffee cups or on t-shirts. But the Republican race – and I was hearing this from candidates and their top strategists out in Milwaukee this week, they’re saying that down the line this could become such a burden on Trump’s time, on his political energy that maybe they start to break through. That’s why they’re not going at him directly in most cases.
You heard some criticism, of course, from Vice President Pence, former Vice President Pence and former Governor Christie in your conversations today. But beyond those two, they’re really hovering around Trump’s candidacy, trying to build their own message should there ever be a collapse with Trump. But as we know with the Republican Party, it might never come. They might always stick by Trump.
NANCY CORDES: It certainly gets difficult to schedule campaign rallies if you’re expected in court every other day. David, I want to go big picture here because you are an election law expert. And I’m just wondering, because you speak to secretaries of state and election officials in various states all the time. How do they feel now that the former president, many of his aides, have actually been charged with crimes connected to the 2020 election, which, as we know, was not rife with fraud, as the former president continues to argue?
BECKER: Yes. It’s 1,027 days since that November 2020 election. The most scrutinized election in American history with more paper ballots, audits, recounts, more pre-election litigation, more post-election litigation confirming the results than ever before. And election officials are still, to this day, almost three years after that, having to debunk lies about that election, having to defend their own patriotism, their own service to our country, playing an endless game of Wack-a-mole.
But I think they are seeing an accountability coming to those who have spread those lies for so long. It’s not just the criminal cases. It’s also the civil defamation case against Fox News. It’s also disbarment proceedings against people like John Eastman and Rudy Giuliani. There is a sense that accountability is coming and they want this to play out according to how the legal system want — is supposed to work. And it is working that way right now.
And so what we hope to see is that there is a cooling down, because right now there are tens of millions of Americans who still believe that Republicans and Democrats are conspiring to steal elections, and that’s just false. And we know it’s false.
NANCY CORDES: A lot of election workers who got death threats, who continue to get death threats because of some of the things that people are saying about the election.
David Becker, Robert Costa, Nikole Killion, Scott MacFarlane, thank you all for being here today. Appreciate it.
And we’ll be right back.
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NANCY CORDES: Welcome back.
Russia’s investigative committee confirmed today that the remains of Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin have been positively identified, along with the nine others who died in a plane crash last week.
We’re joined by Fiona Hill, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and former White House Russia expert.
Good morning, Fiona.
FIONA HILL (Former National Security Council and Senior Director, European and Russian Affairs): Thanks, Nancy.
NANCY CORDES: Thank you so much for being here.
So, Russian President Vladimir Putin claims he had nothing to do with this. Is there anyone in the diplomatic community who believes that?
FIONA HILL: I doubt it. And I – look, I think what we can certainly say is he didn’t order it not to happen because there are plenty of people who were painting a target on Prigozhin’s back. The system itself expected him to be taken out of the picture in some fashion. I guess it was a question about what the method would be. And, in fact, I think over the last two months there’s been more shock, not just internationally but also domestically based on source reporting that the fact that nothing had happened to Prigozhin and that he was allowed to walk around as if he hadn’t indeed perpetrated a push (ph) exactly two months ago.
NANCY CORDES: You know, usually Putin’s enemies tend to get poisoned or pushed out windows or shot. Why go to the trouble of bombing an airplane?
FIONA HILL: Well, we don’t know exactly how the aircraft was brought down yet, but I guess we’ll find out more as things go along. I mean I’m sure, again, that the Russian government, the Kremlin, will accuse all kinds of other people about carrying out this act, if it seemed to be the result of an explosive device, you know, for example.
But it’s so dramatic. It’s so spectacular that, of course, one has to ask whether this was done for the demonstrative effect of it. And we have had some mysterious plane crashes in the past taking down Russian leaders. There was a very famous general, Alexander Lebed, for example, who died in a helicopter crash. So, it’s not something that is unheard of. And in other settings as well, of course, we’ve had Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, where they have been the loss of key people in plane crashes. So, I think this is par for the course, unfortunately.
NANCY CORDES: And there is some symmetry, isn’t there, to Prigozhin’s dash to Moscow in that aborted mutiny when the Wagner group brought down several Russian aircraft?
FIONA HILL: Exactly. So, this is also a part of that idea of he who lives by the sword dies by the sword. An eye for an eye. The vengeance factor, it’s baked into the system. There was a lot of clamor from the uniformed military and especially the air force for some kind of retribution for this, whether it was in a legal form.
But, look, he took down a proportional number of people in a Russian military aircraft, as you’ve just said here. So, again, there is a symmetry and a symbolism all of it — in all of this that is inescapable in the Russian domestic context, as well as for the rest of us watching it from the outside.
NANCY CORDES: The Wagner group has been so pivotal for the Russian military in the war in Ukraine. Now there are reports that the Russian government is requiring Wagner fighters to sign loyalty oaths. What is this going to mean? The death of Yevgeny Prigozhin, what will it mean for the war in Ukraine?
FIONA HILL: Well, I don’t think it will actually mean anything significant for the war in Ukraine in terms of the military campaign itself. We were already seeing that Wagner was being pulled out. It was pulling out after the actions in Bakhmut where they were in the thick of the fighting there in that city that, of course, you know, was so much of the focus on the carnage of the war over the last several months. But it was already a precipitating factor in all of this series of events over the last two months. The idea that the Wagner group were going to be dismantled and reincorporated or incorporated for the first time, rather, into the Russian military, and that was one of the factors that Prigozhin himself was citing as a reason for him making his march on Moscow. He didn’t want to have his guys put under the command of the central Russian military.
So, I think, you know, what we can see from all of this is that Wagner was pretty crucial for these early stages, this first couple of parts of the campaign in Ukraine, and now the Russian government and Putin wants to have more centralized control. He gave Wagner a long leash, and Prigozhin clearly took that leash far too far.
NANCY CORDES: You know, you’re such a close study of Vladimir Putin. You’ve sat across the table from him. How should we think about his power in Russia now after this likely assassination? There was a period of time after Prigozhin made that dash to Moscow where it seemed like elites, commentators in Russia felt more comfortable speaking out against Putin, against the war. He appeared to be weak. How does his standing look to you now?
FIONA HILL: Well, not only were other commentators speaking out, but Prigozhin himself said this war was a mistake. But it was basically — he was acting because he wanted to make sure that war was won. And that was kind of part of the – the theme of his – of his revolt.
Now, other commentators, as you rightly said, including, you know, some senior generals, have been bashed — literally bashed back and put out of the picture for saying the same kinds of things. What Putin is saying with this assassination, whether, you know, he actually carried it out or not, the message is going to be very clearly transmitted to everybody, no speaking out now. Buckle down. Everyone getting behind this campaign in Ukraine. That’s why I say I don’t think it’s really going to change the way the Russians are approaching this. And there is no room whatsoever for disloyalty.
One of the things that Putin said that was very notable when the mutiny, the push (ph), was happening two months ago, was that the traitors who carry this out will have an inevitable punishment. We’ve seen an inevitable death as a result of this that everyone was foretold. I mean we’ve all been expecting something like this for the last two months.
The message to the whole system is, don’t try anything. And even don’t criticize, I would say, at this point because we’ve seen so much action against people who have been speaking out.
NANCY CORDES: And Prigozhin may not be the last to be targeted. Fiona Hill, Russia expert, thank you so much for being here today.
FIONA HILL: Thank you so much.
NANCY CORDES: Thank you.
And that’s it for us. Thank you for watching. For FACE THE NATION,” I’m Nancy Cordes. Have a good day.
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